Recently two pleasant ladies came to our door. They were Jehovah’s Witnesses. I immediately I told them I was a pastor so as not to pretend that I was ignorant of the Bible and then to suddenly surprise them. They were still interested in talking to me, although I could tell they did change gears. They gave me a book and asked to visit with me again. The book was titled, What the Bible Really Teaches. I did read it and I want to respond quickly to a number of issues. I divide them into Samaritan issues and essential issues.
Samaritan issues are inspired by Jesus’ conversation with the woman at the well. When the conversation became too personal, the Samaritan woman tried to divert the conversation into a debate about where true worship should take place. Jehovah’s Witnesses do this in a number of ways but I will only mention a few. JW’s claim that Jesus was crucified not on a cross but on a sake. Part of their reason is to avoid the “idolatry” of “false” Christians who decorate their homes and bodies with crosses. Although historical and archaelogical evidence support the translation of “cross,” it is safe to say that God will not decide our eternal fate by how many planks we thought were used on Good Friday. JWs also believe it is wrong to celebrate holidays. They do not mention that Jesus celebrated both biblical and nonbiblical holidays. They object to the pagan origins of holidays. In this they include New Years, even though Rosh Hashanah is New Years, although at a different time. As for pagan origins, our days and months often go back to pagan worship. January and March come from the Roman gods Janus and Mars. Wednesday and Thursday come from the Teutonic gods Woden and Thor. Do we stop using those as well? What we must remember is that these arguments have more sociological than theological value. They serve as identity markers to separate JWs from the heathen masses.
More important than these are issues like the identity of Jesus. They see Jesus and Michael the archangel as the same being. This, even though the first chapters of Hebrews go to great lengthes to argue that Jesus is greater than any angel. They reject the Trinity as it is not mentioned in the Bible. Canon, omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence are words not mentioned in the Bible but they accept those concepts. By making Jesus a god and not God they are going against the Jewish concept of monotheism, a belief that Jesus explicitly endorsed. Orthodox Christians affirm there is only one God but that he is Father, Son and Spirit. They can argue that the Trinity was created by a corrupt church council. Do they realise that the same people who developed the description of the Trinity also defined the canon? Our first canonical list of all 66 books comes from Athanasius, one of the greatest defenders of the orthodox view of the deity of Christ. If they are wrong on the Trinity, were they wrong with the canon of 66 books as well? JWs also believe that people cease to exist at death and then much later God chooses to resurrect them. They are correct in their emphasis on the resurrection but incorrect on the end of existence at death. There are numerous descriptions of shades of the deceased in Sheol and in 1 Samuel 28, the shade of Samuel is contacted and communicated with. Jesus told the thief on the cross that they would be in Paradise that day and we see the souls of the martyrs in Revelation calling out to God before the resurrection. As for the name Jehovah, that is an acceptable although not preferrable form of the Hebrew YHWH. It is fine to use that but what they neglect to tell people is that the New Testament never uses the name Jehovah. In fact the New Testament is unanimous that the name by which people are saved is Jesus.
I plan to work through this in greater detail at a later date. But for the moment, my advice, if you are encountering Jehovah’s Witnesses is to avoid the Samaritan issues and focus on the essentials. That is what Jesus did with the woman at the well.
More
Looking forward to the rest of the story!
Let me assure you, “pastor”, that any experienced Witness of Jehovah is equipped to handle conversations with the like of you. We look forward to it! We are not-in the least- bullied by anyone who titles himself “father”, “reverend”, “Doctor”, or the like. Your knowledge is really shallow. so many examples in this one article . Just a few: Jesus is clearly the archanel, Michael [meaning CHIEF of the angels] Our scriptural references in the “Teach” book prove that clearly…Next: Where in the BIBLE does it say Jesus celebrated “holidays”? He was Jewish; therefore he was-by the Mosaic Law-obligated to celebrate it with all Jews. He specifically commanded his disciples to commemorate his death, which true Christians do ’til this day. A basic encyclopaedia will aid you to see how pagan the origins of most “holiday” deemed christian are. The HOLY God oof the Bible is not going to bless such disgusting customs invented by those who disdain His worship. Next, regarding the use of the cross: Use of the cross long ante-dates Christianity. Have you read your encyclopaedia lately on the subject? These are but a few, sir. I suggest in your next instalation, you might reference with scripture if you are going to attack us.
I have no intention of attacking or bullying anyone. My intention with the pastor remark is that it would be unfair of me to pretend to be ignorant of the Bible when in fact I can read Greek and Hebrew, have studied the Jewish context of the New Testament and have read the Bible numerous times. I do not want to be dishonest. As for biblical references, I would be happy to add them. Regarding holidays, holidays are literally holy days and so Jesus did celebrate holidays. You did not comment on New Years being biblical even if the date has been changed. As for biblical holy days, please comment on John 10:22 where Jesus celebrates the Feast of Celebration (today called Hannukah), a non-biblical holiday. Please also comment on the importance of the name Jehovah and why it does not appear in the New Testament. These are not attacks, but my attempt at conversation between two interpretations of the Bible.
Wow, Pam please take a deep breath and re-read what you’re typing before you hit ‘Submit’. Firstly I don’t understand why you call what Mr Bedard wrote as bullying. At no time does he attack the two Witnesses, in fact he refers to them as ‘pleasant’. I am a former member of your religion and I believe I can safely say that your response would not be the one an Elder would approve of. But of course that is only my opinion. Some further points –
You suggest that he ‘reference with scripture’ yet at no time do you do this. Stating “Our scriptural references in the “Teach” book prove that clearly” doesn’t help the interested readers of this article, those who most likely do not have access to the “Teach’ book. So where in the bible does it state that Jesus is the archangel Michael? How is this ‘clear’? Let me help you – maybe referencing 1 Thessalonians 4:16, where it says (referring to Jesus) “Because the Lord himself will descend from Heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” The letter of Jude verse 9, states: “But when Michael the Archangel……” By using the word ‘the’ Jude is clarifying there is only one archangel. So comparing the two scriptures leads to the conclusion that Michael and Jesus are the same being. You could also point out that the term ‘archangel’ only ever occurs in the bible in the singular, never in the plural. Of course neither of these points ‘prove’ anything. It is all open to debate and interpretation.
Also, at no point does Mr Bedard state that there are no pagan origins to holidays celebrated in modern times. In fact the only holiday he mentions is New Years Day, and when you call him on it he then gives you Hannukah – with a biblical reference! Yes a large number of supposed ‘christian’ holdays/celebrations have ‘pagan’ origins. But does that make them ‘disgusting’? Lets consider Birthdays. When I questioned an Elder why we didnt celebrate birthdays I was told that it was because the step-daughter of Herod, Salome, was given the head of John the Baptist as a birthday present. Do the actions of a single person dictate that a practice is bad? I really don’t feel that a loving and caring holy father God would be so disgusted at the celebration of a new life, a child of god, coming into the world. Once again, only my opinion.
Lastly, regarding your attack on the use of the cross. Yes the use of the cross symbol predates Christianity, but so what? Mr Bedard makes mention of the act of crucifixion but you seem to gloss over that. Were you perhaps intending to say that the act of crucifixion pre-dates christianity? If so then unfortunately the very encyclopaedias you seem to use as proof disagree with you – ‘Method of capital punishment among the Persians, Seleucids, Jews, Carthaginians, and Romans from about the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD
(http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9361947)
compared to – Christianity: ‘Religion stemming from the teachings of Jesus in the 1st century AD’ (http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9360716).
Pam i sincerely hope you don’t take my response as a personal attack. As I have stated these are my opinions. I would be very interested in your response. Thanyou.
That was of course meant to be ‘Thankyou’ at the end there :)
Thank you Alex for your comments. As a former Jehovah’s Witness, I have a question for you. I know that only those who are among the 144,000 are allowed to receive communion at the annual celebration. How does one prove that they belong to this select group and meet the neccesary criteria? Any help would be appreciated.
You are welcome Stephen. Conversations such as these are of great interest to me. I like nothing more than a good debate, but only if the debaters remain rational and can back up what they are claiming is proof.
Regarding your question. Please bare in mind I left the Witnesses the day after my sixteenth birthday, which unfortunately was over 15 yeas ago so my knowledge cannot be taken as fact.
Firstly, you refer to it as communion. I don’t remember it ever being referred to as that and for some reason hearing it referred to using that term strikes me as incorrect for some reason. Once again I may be mistaken.
The topic of the 144,000 was of great interest to me during my time in the Witnesses. When I asked that very same question (How do you know who the chosen people are?) my bible studies teacher answered that ‘they know in their hearts. They are full with the love of God and feel their appointment in that select group’. Of course being a teenager at that time her answer rankled. How are those people any better or more deserving than me? I love God. I worship Him. I’m a good person etc etc. Luckily my congregation had one of these exalted people so I was able to witness this firsthand. Even with my teenage self-absorbed attitude I was able to feel the aura of contentment that surrounded this person. He truly was a kind, decent man and his love for God was unquestionable. I was also happy to see that he wasn’t an Elder. Anyone could become part of the chosen! I still had a chance! When I told my feelings to my studies teacher she said that the 144,000 were already selected, whether born yet of not, and that I could not be a part of it. I could still enjoy life in paradise as a perfect human though so be happy with that. Of course she didn’t say it in a mean way, she was a sweet and loving person, but I was still stunned. I questioned her on the logic of this belief. How can an imperfect human, living in an imperfect world, be guaranteed a place in the 144,000 before they are even born? Do they have some sort of anti-corruption clause? She honestly told me that she didn’t have the answers I sought and referred me to one of the Elders for guidance. Before my meeting with the Elder I prepared a list of questions, ranging from minor (and kind of petty but remember – teenager!) ones – ‘Why can’t we wear denim jeans to sunday worship?’ – to the major – How can God have always existed? What existed before God? (Revelations 22.13 – ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I have been and always shall be.’) and of course ‘How can a member of the 144,000 be selected for this honor before they are even born?. To his credit he didn’t dismiss any of my questions, treating each one as important. But his answers became increasingly evasive. He often put it down to faith, which I remember really rankled, especially with the major ones. The Witnesses pride themselves on their ability to ‘prove’ any question with quotes from the bible. The Elder’s inability, or reluctance, to do so with my questions was probably the beginning of my decline of belief and led to my ever increasing need to question every facet of the religion. Some future revelations and actions were the final straw and I left the church. The mystery of the 144,000 was never fully explained.
As mentioned at the beginning of my post I have not been a member of the Jehovah’s Witness for many years. If I have incorrectly stated current Witness belief then I apologize and welcome any corrections from current members. I would especially appreciate answers to my questions from years ago:
How can God have always existed? What existed before God?
‘How can a member of the 144,000 be selected for this honor before they are even born?
Thankyou
Thanks again for sharing. I appreciate your balanced viewpoint. Just out of curiousity, now that you have left the Jehovah’s Witnesses, how would you describe your spirituality?
As for what existed before God, I would suggest you pick up a copy of C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. He has an interesting section about God and time. He suggests that God does not exist in time and therefore it is meaningless to talk of a time before God as God is in no time. It is not easy to understand. But then think of the big bang. There was a super dense mass of matter that exploded and caused the universe. Where did that matter come from and what happened before? Scientists might say that time did not begin until the big bang. The point is that it is impossible to conceive of a time before the beginning of the universe, with or without God. What we do know is that the universe does exist and we just need to decide if it happened with or without God. Does that help?
Sorry for the delayed response.
My spirituality is not easy to describe. I am finding it hard to put into words. Let me give you a little background.
When I was 2 years old my younger sister died. As i’m sure you can understand that upset my mother immensely and she was sunk in a sea of depression for many years. One of the ways she fought against the depression was with an almost childlike belief that God would help her, as long as she found the ‘true’ religion. This began her trek through the majority of ‘major’ religions available, everything from Buddhism, Judaism, Mormons etc, and the Witnesses. Of course we (my brother and I) were dragged along for the ride. She eventually settled on the Witnesses. This didn’t sit well with us. Not because we considered them any better or worse than any of the others, but more out of the need to distance ourselves from what we considered her irrational belief that the Witnesses could wave their hands and solve all her problems and grief. We were part of the Witnesses together for around 3 years but my brother and I left on my 16th birthday (I spent my birthday at one of their week-end long Conventions and I was very angry about it). She continued and as far as I know she is still a member (we haven’t spoken for a couple of years).
But years later I have learnt to appreciate my tour of those various religions. Those experiences combined with my own research later has developed my current beliefs.
So back to your question. I think it will be easier if I put my thoughts down in list form. If anyone reading them has an opinion I would love to hear it, but please keep in mind that these are my opinions and we are all entitled to have our own. I do not require a personal attack. Thankyou.
I don’t belong to any organized religion. I have an aversion to them based mainly on my experiences with the Witnesses and Mormons, as well as research into the Catholic Church. People don’t need an organization of flawed human beings telling them the right way to worship. If you love God then all the best. If you prefer to call Him Allah then once again peace to you. If your act of worship is getting naked and dancing among the tress then go for it!
I believe that God exists, but more as an energy that flows through the universe. Does He/It have a conscious? Yes, but is it omnipresent? I don’t know. I am a firm believer in Karma.
I believe in both Creation and Evolution. I believe in the Big Bang, but I believe it was a controlled explosion, not an accident, and that it is progressing in an evolutionary manner.
I believe that Jesus existed and that he was an extraordinary man. But was he the son of God? In the sense that we all are the children of God then absolutely. But the ‘actual’ Son of God, I don’t think so. The reasons are many and would constitute a whole different post.
I’m not sure what the above classes me as and like I said it has been hard putting it all into words. Any feedback is appreciated. Thankyou.
I respect the fact that you have retained an interest in God and spirituality despite a difficult religious upbringing. Too many people give up based on what they have seen other people do with religion. You are very obviously open to many ideas although hesitant to embrace organized religion. I can understand that. One of the things that I would challenge you with is the difficulty of taking from so many traditions, especially those that are mutually exclusive. I would encourage you to look again at Jesus, not from the perspective of organized religion but from the gospels themselves. What does Jesus seem to say about the nature of God? I encourage you to keep searching. Faith is a journey and we all need to persist through the many difficulties and uncertainties that we encounter. Keep searching!
Thanks for sharing :)
I too am searching. I believe in Yahweh and Jesus and the holy spirit. Right now I am doing some research into the Bible. I want the most accurate translation I can find. It’s pretty difficult since I only understand English.
During the course of my research, I have come across some startling bits of information. To say the least I am very frightened for those who have translated these newer bible versions.
So far, it appears that the King James Version comes the closest but it is not without concern.
Does anyone have any feedback regarding Bible translations ?
Thank you for your input ! :)
Is it just me or does it seem that Christianity today seems to be very similar to politics of today? Different parties, different ideals, different agendas ???
Just a thought. In my research I have read a lot of mud slinging between protestants and catholics and JW’s etc. etc. etc. Kinda reminds me of todays presidential candidates.
Just a thought :)
Keep on searching! Yes it is unfortunate that religious people can get nasty. What we have in common is that we are all human and that means we have a tendency to get defensive and overeact. We need to judge religious movements by their core values and not some of the mistakes that their followers have made.
It is a great question about Bible translations. I think I understand your hesitation about newer Bible translations. There are passages in the King James Version that are not found in newer translations. Does this mean that newer translations have deliberately left them out for theological reasons? I too have done research into this. The problem is not with new translations but with the Greek manuscripts that the KJV is based on. The Greek text that was used was based on much later texts and does not take into account some earlier ones that were available at the time and definitely does not include some excellant manuscripts that have been discovered since. Unfortunately over time there have been little changes and additions that have been added to the texts. Some were mistakes and some were notes by scribes that happened to get inserted into the texts. But because of the large quanity and early nature of the texts we now have, we are able to reconstruct the earliest form of the text. That earliest form does not include a number of passages in the KJV. Remember we want the most accurate Bible, not the longest Bible. If you are looking for a good modern translation of the Bible I would recommend the English Standard Version, New Revised Standard Version or Todays New International Version.
Alex with your journey through all you religions I could understand why its hard to belive that Jesus is the son of GOD. But it does state that plenty of times in the old bibles and in the newer bibles. I hope you can come to belive this.;)
Dear sincere truth seekers,
As to being qualified to speak about truth and spiritual matters one does not need:
About Stephen J. Bedard
My name is Stephen Bedard and I am the pastor of Woodford Baptist Church and First Baptist Church, Meaford. I am a graduate of McMaster Divinity College with a Master of Divinity, Master of Theology (New Testament and Early Judaism) and Master of Arts (Biblical Studies). I live with my beautiful wife Amanda and our four wonderful children on the shores of Georgian Bay in Meaford Ontario. My passion is to present the truth of the Bible in an understandable and relevant way. I am the co-author of Unmasking the Pagan Christ: An Evangelical Response to the Cosmic Christ Idea and the author of Finding a New Land: From Canaan to the Resurrection.
as credentials. It is written at Acts 4:13,14 as quoted first from The Mew World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures and then the 1611 King James Version from which I initially percieved the truths contained in the Holy Scriptures:
(Acts 4:13)
“13 Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus; 14 and as they were looking at the man that had been cured standing with them, they had nothing to say in rebuttal.”
KJV 1611
“Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.”
Jesus Christ was annointed with Holy Spirit and these men were also.
A striking example, of which many are possible to be cited, of misleadings by some persons through the centuries since that time is at Psalms 110:1 as I will quote from the 1611 King James Version and in connection with the Tetragrammaton as defined in a good dictionary ask readers to reason on the verse as to the first instance of the wrod LORD in al capital letters and the second occurence of the word Lord where the letters are not all capitals but only the L:
1611 KJV
(Psalms 110:1)
“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”
and now from The New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures with continued consideration of the definition of the Tetragrammaton:
(Psalms 110:1)
The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
This is a Messianic prophecy and just one instance of truth being distorted by misuse of words.
Romans 12:17,18 also states (NWT) :
“17 Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men.”
I and all witnesses of Jehovah (Isaiah 43:10-12) try to apply those words in OUR lives and so only ask paople to reason (or think logically) on the Holy Bible.
I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and as al persons have fallen short of perfection and for any improper words that are not completely accurate I beg forgiveness of the readers and also OUR merciful heavenly father; Jehovah.
Warm Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
Randy, I am not sure what you are trying to get at. I do not provide my background as authority to be submitted to but just as helpful information as I introduce myself to my readers. You do not need seminary education to have knowledge of the Bible.
I also do not see where the disagreement is. I agree with your interpretation of Psalm 110. You are correct that LORD in the Old Testament is YHWH and Lord is adonai. I also agree that Psalm 110:1 is a messianic prophecy.
I also am trying to follow Romans 12:17-18. That is my goal. I do not try and insult anyone but to provide information to further conversation on spiritual matters.
Thanks for your time in responding.
I think many households in predominantly Christian Nations do not openly welcome Jehovah’s Witnesses because their door to door ministry seems designed to mislead the housholder into beleiving the same lies that Satan told in the Garden of Eden.
If you read the following newsletter you should see the parallels to the Edenic Sin:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11566728/Jehovahs-Witnesses-and-Satans-lie
They really are like Satan dressed in a nice suit and tie knocking on your door!
No wonder so many Nations have banned them!
I have talked with many Jehovah’s Witnesses and have never had the impression that any of them intended to deceive any one. I am sure the majority definitely believe what they are preaching. I may disagree with them but I definitely think most JWs are sincere. If I was to put them anywhere in the Eden story it would not be as the serpent but as Eve.
Dear sincere truth seekers,
I was raised in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Never knew what Missouri synod meant or was. For thet matter I did not care as I knew what I was doing was what my parents wanted and at the tiime was satised with that but also, now I know why, because of what is written in the Bible at Matthew 5:3 the (a) part where it is written and inspired by God it is as quoted here from both the NWT (New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures and the 1611 King James Version):
(Matthew 5:3)
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, ”
& Now from KJV 1611 which by the way my Grnandparents bought me as a Christmas present in 1960 and is the Bible in which I discerned that all I had been taught was not the truth contained in the Holy Scriptures even as the name of God does appear in 4 verses: Exodus 6:3 ; Isaiah 12:2 : Isaiah 26:4 : 7 Psalms 83:18:
(Matthew 5:3)
5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit:”
& now from another translation of the Holy Bible which there are many at this web site: http://www.geocities.com/onlinebibletranslations/?20092
(Matthew 5:3) – International Standard Version
3“How blessed are those who are destitute in spirit, ”
The meaning of the verse seems to indicate more accurately expressed in modern English language as is expressed in the NWT that you are or would be in a better spititual state if you understood that a lack of siritual knowledge.
Just a first for instance iwhat in the 1611 KJV ids written at Acts 2:31:
2:31 “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”
I was never taught that Jesus went to Hell in any of the faiths I was exposed to by association at other places of worship with family and friends. Here though the word “left” is used in asssociation with Jesus and hell. Left being the past tense of leave and to leave someplace you must first go there I was intriguedd and puzzeled. Well going to my trusted old friend “A Standard College Dictionary” that my DAD bought me when I was excepted into a prestigious Engineering School in 1970, and looking up the word “hell” I find this definition: 1. In various religions the abode of the dead…
I then saw using logic that Jesus did go to the the abode of the dead.
I had it, the dictionary, rebound twice as it is used to helpme and others I reason with to gain knowledge and understanding.
I was 20 years old and had a head on motorcycle acccident and had just been unconscious for 6 weeeks and was next shown two places in the KJV where the condition of the dead is spoken about Eccl 9:5,10 & Psalms 1463,4:
(1611 KJV)
9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.’
9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
I was ask if while I was in the coma if I felt being stuck with needles or for that matter was conscious of anything what went on. My responsewas, “No I was uncoscious.” It was then ointed out to me in verese 5 “the dead know not any thing” and it was as is scales started to fall off my eyes. Then in verse 10 it was pointed out that it was to “the grave, whither thou goest.”
I began in a large way to see Bible truth and not tradition of man.
While we had the dictionary out I was directed to look up and did the word “tetragrammaton”:n. In the Hebrew texts the group of four letters (JHVH, JHWH, YHVH, YHWH) representing the name ofGod, that is considered to be ineffable. The common transliteration Jehovah is the result of theTetragrammatonwith the vowel pointsof Adonai “my Lord”that is subtituted in reading the name.
As I laid the foundation in my first post about the difference in LORD and Lord in Psalms 110:1,2 one can effectively reason that, substituted means you put something were something else once occupied a position, so Psalms 110:1.2 id properly translated Jehovah says to my Lord in the Messianic prophesy and at the over 7,000 times elsewhere in the Bible where all letters of the word lord or LORD appear it is substituted for what the dictionary, which is a very good dictionary too, says Jehovah should appear as LORD has been substitued.
It is as if as quoted from the (NWT) at Mark 7:7,8 says,
7 ”It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.’ 8 Letting go the commandment of God, YOU hold fast the tradition of men.”
Warmest Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
PS ~ Please go to the site:
http://www.jw.org/index.html?option=QrYQZRQVNlBBX
Where you can download and listen to the book of 224 pages “What Does The Bible Really Teach.”
or to obtain a personal copy you may go to this site ad click on the publications tab and follow the instructions at the bottom of the page:
http://watchtower.org/
Have a look around for some very informative material particularly at the Index where the are over 600 articles on a wide variety of interestin and informative subjects or using the search strip. There is also infowmation available in 376 different languages and 37 sign languages
Dear isaiah30v8,
The lie that Satan told Eve and she was decieved into believing was that if she ate the fruit off the tree of knowledge of good and bad she would not “die.”
It was a lie and bcause of that lie!!!! As Romans 5:12 states from the (NWT)
12 ”That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.”
To sin means to miss the mark; or the bullseye which would be to be perfect and Jesus was perfect,no other hunam being has ever lived and been perfect in obediance to Jehovah God’s will or principles, and died as a perfect man to cover the sins of all men who exercise faith in the “propitiatory” sacrifice:
1 John 2:2 from the (NWT)
2 ”And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s. ”
John 8:44 from the NWT:
44 ”YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].”
Warm Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
Dear sincere seekers of truth from the Bible,
The book, “What Does the Bible Really Teach?,” now is available in print online at this url:
http://watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm
Titled and quoted from that page:
What Does the Bible Really Teach?
Is This What God Purposed?
It is very informative and in my mind and heart conveys that the Bible is what it does say what Paul was inspired to write at Hebrews 4:12,13:
Quoted from the New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures and I invite you to use any other translations of which there are many at the web site I refered to above,
http://www.geocities.com/onlinebibletranslations/?20092
,to compare and gain understanding:
Hebrews 4:12,13
“12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.”
I find it refreshing, the knowledge that can be gained from study of the Bible and the book as a study aid book, from even the first page the url will take you to from the pictures and scriptures to back up the reasoning upon viewing the pictures on the page combined with the Bible verses.
Warm Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
Please explain to me why the Jeh. Witness bible has capitalized the words YOU and YOUR — I am curious about this
To be honest, I had never noticed that before. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I did a search and discovered that YOU refers to the plural of you. So God loves you as an individual and God loves YOU in reference to your family. Hope that helps.
Dear seekers of truth,
To clarify and add emphasis to accurare knowledge one can go to this site – http://jehovah.to
& in particular this page of the site -
http://jehovah.to/exe/translation/advantages.htmand
“Advantages of the New World Translation:
A discussion of its modern language. its uniformity. its careful verb renderings, and its dynamic expression of the inspired Word of God.”
& down to the sub-heading and it is quoted in the text below:
“PLURAL “YOU” INDICATED”
The older English forms of the second person singular, “thee,” “thou,” and “thy,” have been retained in some modern translations in cases where God is being addressed. However, in the languages in which the Bible was written, there was no special form of the personal pronoun for use in address to God, but the same form was used as when addressing one’s fellowman. So the New World Translation has dropped these now sanctimonious usages and employs the normal conversational “you” in all cases. In order to distinguish the second person plural “you” and verbs whose plural number is not readily apparent in English, the words are printed entirely in small capital letters. Often it is helpful to the reader to know whether a given Scripture text refers to “you” as an individual, or to “YOU” as a group of persons, a congregation.
For example, at Romans 11:13 Paul is speaking to the many: “Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations.” But at Ro 11 verse 17 the Greek changes to the singular “you,” and the application is brought down pointedly to the individual: “However, if some of the branches were broken off but you…were grafted in…” ”
Online Bible
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures is here:
http://watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm
1 Tim 2:3-7 as stated in “The New World Translation Of The Ho;y Scriptures ” says:
“3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and
come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. 7 For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth. ”
(come to an accurate knowledge of truth. ) made to stand out by the author of the post!
I evidently clicked submit accidently before adding
Warm Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
To find out more about what I consider to also be advantages of “The New World Translation Of The Holy Sciptures” one may also go to the page of the site cited above and examine much more on the following subjects with just one click on each of the following subjects:
http://jehovah.to/exe/translation/advantages.htm
Advantages of the New World Translation:
• Is It Grammar or Interpretation?
• Did Jesus Die on a Cross?
• “Between-the-Lines” Translations of the Bible
• The Trinity-Is It Taught in the Bible?
• Why is the same Greek word translated differently?
• William Tyndale’s Bible for the People
• Spiritual Gems From the Christian Greek Scriptures
• Choosing a Modem Bible Translation ”
Also the link in the post above needs correcting as I do make many errrors especially when typing or using a keyboard. Thank you!!!!
Warm Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
Here if the correct link:
http://jehovah.to/exe/translation/advantages.htm
Thanks for this. That is the web-site I used to answer the question. Very helpful.
Dear sincere truth seekers.
To clarify and continue stressing the need to understanding and gain accurate knowledge; it is not that web site cited,
http://jehovah.to/
that is the real source of the knowledge that is expounded upon in these posts but the New World Bible Translation Committee and their desire to render the best sense of words so the New World Translation is as consistent as possible in rendering Hebrew and Greek words into the target language.
The real author of the Bible is Jehovah God for it states at 2 Timothy 3:16.17 as quoted from
The New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures:
“16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”
The real source of scriptural knowledge is the true God, Jehovah.
When I saw his name at Psalms 83:18 in the King James Version of the Bible that my Grandparents had bought me as a Christmas present 12/25/1960 rather than viewing the true God and creator of all things as an entity imposing or something other than what he really is, 1 John 4:8 “God is love”, I began to see he wants to be “known” and to be OUR friend.
Jehovah is also translated from the Hebrew and rendered Jehovah in 3 other instances rather than substituting LORD. The divine name is correctly rendered at Exodus 6:3, Isaiah 12:2, & Isaiah 26:4 in the 1611 KJV.
Sincerely and with Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
I have no problem with the name Jehovah (more properly YHWH). However, if that name is so important, why does the New Testament always follow the LXX in presenting it as kurios or Lord?
To all who seek understanding and truth,
The dictionary I possess and mentioned in an above post says that the tetragrammaton is variously transliterated in one of four different ways (IHVH, JHWH, JHVH,YHWH) and the following confirms that and is taken from an online encyclopedia and copied and pasted below so as I do not make errors typing as I might sometimes do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton
“These four letters are usually transliterated from Hebrew as IHVH in Latin, JHWH in German, French and Dutch, and JHVH/YHWH in English. This has been variously rendered as “Yahweh” or even occasionally as “Jehovah”, based on the Latin form of the term.[4] while the Hebrew text does not clearly indicate the omitted vowels. In English translations, it is often rendered in capital and small capital letters as “the LORD”, following Jewish tradition which reads the word as “Adonai” (“Lord”) out of respect for the name of God and the interpretation of the commandment not to take the name of God in vain.” (Italics and boldness of the word tradition added by Randy N agel to emphasize tradition of man being the reason behingd the substitution)
As to why Jehovah is used in The New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures; the following is a a web site that has on it the appendix 1C found in The New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures, and if one is sincerely interested in the truth I suggest one can examine the web site so I make no errors or make not errors in my entering the information:
http://www.tetragrammaton.org/lxx_appdx1c.htm
At this point I will take my leave from this discussion and suggest that any further inquiry be done by having a Bible Study with one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in their public ministry that is conducted worldwide as I am well aware that in carrying out the command Jesus gave his disciples is best done in that way and Paul also did in following Jesus’ footsteps closely; 1 Peter 2:21 as stated in The New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures:
“In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.”
And to give evidence that Paul conducted his ministry in a house to house manner Acts 20:20 and the other disciples did too as stated at Acts 5:42:
(Acts 20:20) while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house.
(Acts 5:42) And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.
Taking my leave so as not to become involved in questionings and debating over words!
Sincerely and with Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
I am sorry that you are ending the conversation as I do not think it is getting nasty in any way. I do not have a big problem with the name Jehovah although I do not think that it is the best version of YHWH. Yes, German uses a J but in German that has a Y sound. That is not that important. What I want to know is if the name Jehovah is so important, why is it not used in the New Testament?
To Randy Nagel,
I am a Christian and not a Jehovah’s Witness. As a Christian who is knowledgeable about what the Watchtower society teaches, I should like to share with you a heads up that the WBTS disapproves of and discourages Witnesses from having online dialogues, especially with Christians.
I am very glad you feel comfortable enough to make your thoughts known to this blog so that Christians can discern biblical truth from Watchtower doctrines, and I am sure Stephen will continue to welcome your input here. But take care that you do not come under the discipline of the religious authorities above you in the organization.
I say these things as a Christian of conscience and hope you don’t take them the wrong way. May you one day see the deception of the WBTS and encounter the LORD God and Savior Jesus Christ in your life.
Blessings,
Letitia
Hi I love reading my Bible and learning about Jehovah’s word people can say whatever they want out of their mouths I rely on the Holy Scriptures to guide me each day that I awake one thing I have learned about Jehovah is the more I focus on God’s word the less friends I have it is truly a walk with God alone and as I am traveling on this spiritual journey I am also learning not to give my opinon or try to correct things just like it is written lean not to your own understanding trust in God’s word and wow! this is a beautiful journey don’t have to worry about friends people are looking at me with smiles on their faces and I don’t even know why but it feel great!
Keep reading your Bible. I too have found it a life changing experience. There is no book like it. Blessings on your journey!
Hope this information clarifies the issue of the NT leaving out the name JEHOVAH:
SHOULD THE NAME JEHOVAH APPEAR IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?
DOES it matter whether God’s name appears in the Bible? God obviously felt so. His name, as represented by the four Hebrew characters known as the Tetragrammaton, appears almost 7,000 times in the original Hebrew text of what is commonly called the Old Testament.
Bible scholars acknowledge that God’s personal name appears in the Old Testament, or Hebrew Scriptures. However, many feel that it did not appear in the original Greek manuscripts of the so-called New Testament.
What happens, then, when a writer of the New Testament quotes passages from the Old Testament in which the Tetragrammaton appears? In these instances, most translators use the word “Lord” rather than God’s personal name. The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures does not follow this common practice. It uses the name Jehovah 237 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, or New Testament.
What problems do Bible translators face when it comes to deciding whether to use God’s name in the New Testament? What basis is there for using God’s name in this part of the Holy Scriptures? And how does the use of God’s name in the Bible affect you?
A TRANSLATION PROBLEM
The manuscripts of the New Testament that we possess today are not the originals. The original manuscripts written by Matthew, John, Paul, and others were well used, and no doubt they quickly wore out. Hence, copies were made, and when those wore out, further copies were made. Of the thousands of copies of the New Testament in existence today, most were made at least two centuries after the originals were penned. It appears that by that time those copying the manuscripts either replaced the Tetragrammaton with Ku′ri‧os or Ky′ri‧os, the Greek word for “Lord,” or copied from manuscripts where this had been done.
Knowing this, a translator must determine whether there is reasonable evidence that the Tetragrammaton did in fact appear in the original Greek manuscripts. Is there any such proof? Consider the following arguments:
▪ When Jesus quoted the Old Testament or read from it, he used the divine name. (Deuteronomy 6:13, 16; 8:3; Psalm 110:1; Isaiah 61:1, 2; Matthew 4:4, 7, 10; 22:44; Luke 4:16-21) In the days of Jesus and his disciples, the Tetragrammaton appeared in copies of the Hebrew text of what is often called the Old Testament, as it still does today. However, for centuries scholars thought that the Tetragrammaton was absent from manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, as well as from manuscripts of the New Testament. Then in the mid-20th century, something remarkable came to the attention of scholars—some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus’ day had been discovered. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters.
▪ Jesus used God’s name and made it known to others. (John 17:6, 11, 12, 26) Jesus plainly stated: “I have come in the name of my Father.” He also stressed that his works were done “in the name of [his] Father.” In fact, Jesus’ own name means “Jehovah Is Salvation.”—John 5:43; 10:25.
▪ The divine name appears in its abbreviated form in the Greek Scriptures. At Revelation 19:1, 3, 4, 6, the divine name is embedded in the expression “Alleluia,” or “Hallelujah.” This expression literally means “Praise Jah, you people!” Jah is a contraction of the name Jehovah.
▪ Early Jewish writings indicate that Jewish Christians used the divine name in their writings. The Tosefta, a written collection of oral laws completed by about 300 C.E., says with regard to Christian writings that were burned on the Sabbath: “The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim [thought to be Jewish Christians] they do not save from a fire. But they are allowed to burn where they are, . . . they and the references to the Divine Name which are in them.” This same source quotes Rabbi Yosé the Galilean, who lived at the beginning of the second century C.E., as saying that on other days of the week “one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.” Thus, there is strong evidence that the Jews living in the second century C.E. believed that Christians used Jehovah’s name in their writings.
HOW HAVE TRANSLTORS HANDLED THE ISSUE?
Is the New World Translation the only Bible that restores God’s name when translating the Greek Scriptures? No. Based upon the above evidence, many Bible translators have felt that the divine name should be restored when they translate the New Testament.
For example, many African, American, Asian, and Pacific-island language versions of the New Testament use the divine name liberally. (See chart on page 21.) Some of these translations have appeared recently, such as the Rotuman Bible (1999), which uses the name Jihova 51 times in 48 verses of the New Testament, and the Batak-Toba version (1989) from Indonesia, which uses the name Jahowa 110 times in the New Testament. The divine name has appeared, too, in French, German, and Spanish translations. For instance, Pablo Besson translated the New Testament into Spanish in the early 20th century. His translation uses Jehová at Jude 14, and nearly 100 footnotes suggest the divine name as a likely rendering.
Below are some examples of English translations that have used God’s name in the New Testament:
A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter (1863)
The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson (1864)
The Epistles of Paul in Modern English, by George Barker Stevens (1898)
St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford (1900)
The Christian’s Bible—New Testament, by George N. LeFevre (1928)
The New Testament Letters, by J.W.C. Wand, Bishop of London (1946)
Recently, the 2004 edition of the popular New Living Translation made this comment in its preface under the heading “The Rendering of Divine Names”: “We have generally rendered the tetragrammaton (YHWH) consistently as ‘the LORD,’ utilizing a form with small capitals that is common among English translations. This will distinguish it from the name ′adonai, which we render ‘Lord.’” Then when commenting on the New Testament, it says: “The Greek word kurios is consistently translated ‘Lord,’ except that it is translated ‘LORD’ wherever the New Testament text explicitly quotes from the Old Testament, and the text there has it in small capitals.” (Italics ours.) The translators of this Bible therefore acknowledge that the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) should be represented in these New Testament quotes.
Interestingly, under the heading “Tetragrammaton in the New Testament,” The Anchor Bible Dictionary makes this comment: “There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the O[ld] T[estament] quotations in the N[ew] T[estament] when the NT documents were first penned.” And scholar George Howard says: “Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text.”
TWO COMPELLING REASONS
Clearly, then, the New World Translation was not the first Bible to contain the divine name in the New Testament. Like a judge who is called upon to decide a court case for which there are no living eyewitnesses, the New World Bible Translation Committee carefully weighed all the relevant evidence. Based on the facts, they decided to include Jehovah’s name in their translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures. Note two compelling reasons why they did so.
(1) The translators believed that since the Christian Greek Scriptures were an inspired addition to the sacred Hebrew Scriptures, the sudden disappearance of Jehovah’s name from the text seemed inconsistent.
Why is that a reasonable conclusion? About the middle of the first century C.E., the disciple James said to the elders in Jerusalem: “Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14) Does it sound logical to you that James would make such a statement if nobody in the first century knew or used God’s name?
(2) When copies of the Septuagint were discovered that used the divine name rather than Ky′ri‧os (Lord), it became evident to the translators that in Jesus’ day copies of the earlier Scriptures in Greek—and of course those in Hebrew—did contain the divine name.
Apparently, the God-dishonoring tradition of removing the divine name from Greek manuscripts developed only later. What do you think? Would Jesus and his apostles have promoted such a tradition?—Matthew 15:6-9.
CALL “ON THE NAME OF JEHOVAH”
Really, the Scriptures themselves act as a conclusive “eyewitness” statement that early Christians did in fact use Jehovah’s name in their writings, especially when they quoted passages from the Old Testament that contain that name. Without a doubt, then, the New World Translation has a clear basis for restoring the divine name, Jehovah, in the Christian Greek Scriptures.
How does this information affect you? Quoting the Hebrew Scriptures, the apostle Paul reminded the Christians in Rome: “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Then he asked: “How will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard?” (Romans 10:13, 14; Joel 2:32) Bible translations that use God’s name when appropriate help you to draw close to God. (James 4:8) Really, what an honor it is for us to be allowed to know and to call upon God’s personal name, Jehovah.
This info was tken from the August 2008 issue of WATCHTOWER Magazine pg. 18-23
I am a current menmber of JW’s.
Thanks for your post and I respect your opinion. However, it is a fairly weak argument to say the tetragrammaton once was there and was taken out before our earliest copies existed. That is like me claiming that I am mentioned in the NT but that all mention of me was taken out before our earliest copies. You could never prove me wrong. However, here are the problems with your argument:
1) While some copies of the LXX found at Qumran may have had YHWH, by far the majority had kurios and there is no reason to think that the copies used by the NT writers were any different.
2) Not all our copies are two centuries after the originals. There are portions of John which my be 30-40 years after the original.
3) The NT was not immediately collected and held centrally. It is difficult to imagine that all the manuscripts from all over the Roman Empire were changed with not trace of the original name.
4) The early Christians, unlike the Jews, did not have the same sensitivity to the name, so there was no reason for them to remove it.
5) There are Aramaic words still in the NT (eg Abba), why was YHWH changed?
Thanks for your reply, but I must strongly disagree for a few reasons:
(1) The article never once made the argument that the tetragrammaton was once there and that “all” mention was taken out before our earliest copies. The fact is “most” bible translations, Jewish, Catholic and Protestant, fail to give God the honor of his distinctive name, but there are notable exeptions in addition to the New World Translation. Among such are Young and Rotherham (Yahweh) in English; Elberfelder, Parallel Bible in German; Moderna, Valera, Bover-Cantera, Straubinger in Spanish.
(2) Your argument that anyone can claim that their name belongs in the NT but that all mention of was taken out is a weak argument. God’s name has a RIGHT to be there. In the first place, since Matthew quoted directly from the Hebrew text, it follows that whenever he came across the name Jehovah he would carry it over into his gospel. Further, in view of the emphasis Jesus put upon Jehovah’s name, we cannot imagine either his or any of his apostles being influenced by Jewish tradition in this matter, as you yourself suggested, especially in view of their lashing out repeatedly against Jewish traditions. Besides, earliest fragments of the Greek Septuagint show that, at the first, Jewish scribes also were not bound by this tradition, for they copied the tetregrammaton rather than using a substitute. So it follows then that in the days of Jesus and his apostles Jehovah’s distinctive name was given the honor due in that it must have appeared in the original autographs of the bible.
(3) Every Greek reader must confess that in the LXX the Greek words Kyrios and Theos have been used to crowd out the distinct name of God. We know that this happened because we have early fragments of the Septuagint where God’s name was included and later copies of those same parts of the Septuagint where God’s name has been removed. Every comprehensive Greek-English dictionary states that these two Greek words have been used as equivalents of the divine name. So the modern translator is warranted in using the divine name as an equivalent of those two Greek words, that is, at places where Matthew, etc., quote verses, passages and expressions from the Hebrew scriptures or from the LXX where the divine name occurs.
Mr. Bedard, you characterize this issue as a “Samaritan” issue or non-essential, but what could be more important an issue as the name of God. Bible translation that honors God must, above all, do justice to his distinctive name.
I hear what you are saying but we must also stay faithful to the biblical manuscripts that we have. Changing kurios to YHWH because we think that is what is proper is not being very respectful to God’s Word. As for Matthew, he is one writer who was sensitive to Jewish traditions. That is why he changed kingdom of God to kingdom of heaven. As for the importance of the name YHWH, we also have to acknowledge that the name by which we are saved is not Jehovah but Jesus.
As far as the Trinity doctrine is concerned, you say in your Post that:
“…They can argue that the Trinity was created by a corrupt church council. Do they realise that the same people who developed the description of the Trinity also defined the canon? Our first canonical list of all 66 books comes from Athanasius, one of the greatest defenders of the orthodox view of the deity of Christ. If they are wrong on the Trinity, were they wrong with the canon of 66 books as well?…”
Please tell me that this is not an actual argument for this doctrine because it is ridiculous on so many fronts.
Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the Doctrine of the Trinity, not because it was created by a corrupt church council, but because the scriptures do not support such a teaching, Jesus neither taught or supported the notion, neither did his apostles.
I could use that same argument against the notion that Hitler was a evil dictator who killed millions of Jews:
Do you realise that the same Hitler who killed millions also did a lot of humanitarian work? He built shelters for the homeless and fed the poor.
He unified the German people and helped them regain their sense of pride. He stabilized the German economy and eliminated foreign debt
The standardized schedule, the modern autobahn system, and the Kindergarten system originated with him. If he was wrong for killing millions of Jews, was he wrong for all the other stuff he did?
This argument is obviuosly nonsense.
To believe in the Trinity doctrine as taught by the churches requires you to believe that Jesus was in heaven while he was on earth? This teaching is similar to what Athanasius himself stated in his book “On the Incarnation”:
“The Word [Jesus] was not hedged in by His body, nor did His presence in the body prevent His being present elsewhere as well. When He moved His body He did not cease also to direct the universe by His Mind and might. . . . He is still Source of life to all the universe, present in every part of it, yet outside the whole.”
The fact is, the bible is complete in doctrinal matters. If the Trinity doctrine is true, it should be there. I invite you to search the Bible, especially the 27 books of the Christian Greek Scriptures, to see for yourself if Jesus and his disciples taught a Trinity. As you search, ask yourself:
1. Can I find any scripture that mentions “Trinity”?
2. Can I find any scripture that says that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, but that the three are only one God?
3. Can I find any scripture that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom?
Search as extensively as you may, you will not find one scripture that uses the word Trinity, nor will you find any that says that Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom. Not even a single scripture says that the Son is equal to the Father in those ways. And if there were such a scripture, it would establish not a Trinity but at most a “duality.” Nowhere does the Bible even equate the holy spirit with the Father.
I will answer your questions about the trinity later but let me ask you this:
Do you believe in a canon of authoritative scripture? Why? Is canon mentioned in the Bible? Does the Bible tell us how to tell what books belong in the Bible and what do not? Why do you accept the books that you do? If the Bible is complete on doctrinal matters, it should speak to this issue.
1Tim 3:16,17 tells us:
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
Notice how the Bible, God’s word make the true Christian COMPLETELY equipped for settings things straight, teaching, and every good work.” So if trinity is Biblical, it should be plainly stated.
We both would agree on that.
Canonicity of Scripture is a far cry from Doctrinal issues. The Bible is complete on doctrinal issues as stated above and again in Heb 4:12.
Notice the point in Heb 6:1,2:
“For this reason, now that we have left the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works, and faith toward God, the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment.”
Notice how Paul here tells us what the “PRIMARY DOCTRINE” ABOUT THE CHRIST IS:
repentance from dead works
faith toward God
the teaching on baptisms
the laying on of the hands
the resurrection of the dead
everlasting judgment
Did Paul state we need to accept Jesus as second person of some mystical triune Godhead? Funny how the teaching of Trinity isn’t mentioned yet most trinitarians are quick to state that if “you deny trinity, you deny the very fundamental teaching of the Bible!” So I ask: Where does the Bible say that?
FACTS: Trinity doctrine is a POST Biblical teaching. Jesus NEVER taught One God 3 Persons. Jesus told the Samaratian woman at the well:
“You worship what you DO NOT KNOW (like the triune mystery God) WE (the Jews including Jesus himself) worship what we know! Salvation originates with the Jews. True worshippers worship the Father in spirit and truth.” John 4:22,23.
Jesus was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, Moses was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, Isaiah was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, Micah was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, Paul was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, the the JEWS NEVER taught Trinity EVER EVER! Why do you teach trinity? Does any trinitarian think you know better that those I just mentioned?
In the above verse, Jesus would have been under obligation to instruct the woman at the well in trinitarianism, as he was identifying TRUE worship from FALSE worship. Yet he stated True worshippers worship ONE PERSON, the FATHER.. not 3 persons.! So TRUE WORSHIPPERS CANNOT be trinitarian according to Jesus! Unless maybe Jesus was telling a lie? or deceiving the woman?
Trinity CANNOT be arrived at using the GRAMMAR of the Bible. Trinity seeks to present what one THINKS the Bible MEANS over what the Bible SAYS. Thereby making the word of God invalid. Trinity REDEFINES WORDS to meet preconceived theological views.
Regarding the canon issue, Jehovah has preserved his word for us today, I am sure we both agree to that. How ever “some add,” (not you in this post) that those that “gave us the canon we accept today, ALSO gave us the trinity doctrine.”
Yeah well, they also burned people at the stake, and carried on bloody crusades raping and murdering in the name of Christ. So to those that reason this way, I ask: Are you happy to be associated with that too?
How ever notice some facts in the following chart:
The following Chart shows that the accepted canon of scripture
was in place FAR before the 3rd Council of Carthage.
A – Accepted without query as Scriptural and canonical
D – Doubted in certain quarters
DA – Doubted in certain quarters, but cataloger accepted it as
Scriptural and canonical
? – Scholars uncertain of the reading of the text or how a
book mentioned is viewed
– A blank space indicates that the book was not used or
mentioned by that authority
Name and Place
Muratorian Irenaeus, Clement of Tertullian,
Fragment, Asia Minor Alexandria N. Africa
Italy
Approx.
Date C.E. 170 180 190 207
Matthew A A A A
Mark A A A A
Luke A A A A
John A A A A
Acts A A A A
Romans A A A A
1 Corin. A A A A
2 Corin. A A A A
Galatians A A A A
Ephesians A A A A
Philippians A A A A
Colossians A A A A
1 Thess. A A A A
2 Thess. A A A A
1 Timothy A A A A
2 Timothy A A A A
Titus A A A A
Philemon A A
Hebrews D DA DA
James ?
1 Peter A? A A A
2 Peter D? A
1 John A A DA A
2 John A A DA
3 John A?
Jude A DA A
Revelation A A A A
Name and Place
Origen, Eusebius, Cyril of Cheltenham
Alexandria Palestine Jerusalem List,
N. Africa
Approx.
Date C.E. 230 320 348 365
Matthew A A A A
Mark A A A A
Luke A A A A
John A A A A
Acts A A A A
Romans A A A A
1 Corinthians A A A A
2 Corinthians A A A A
Galatians A A A A
Ephesians A A A A
Philippians A A A A
Colossians A A A A
1 Thess. A A A A
2 Thess. A A A A
1 Timothy A A A A
2 Timothy A A A A
Titus A A A A
Philemon A A A A
Hebrews DA DA A
James DA DA A
1 Peter A A A A
2 Peter DA DA A D
1 John A A A A
2 John DA DA A D
3 John DA DA A D
Jude DA DA A
Revelation A DA A
Name and Place
Athanasius, Epiphanius, Gregory Amphilocius,
Alexandria Palestine Nazianzus, Asia Minor
Asia Minor
Approx.
Date C.E. 367 368 370 370
Matthew A A A A
Mark A A A A
Luke A A A A
John A A A A
Acts A A A A
Romans A A A A
1 Corinthians A A A A
2 Corinthians A A A A
Galatians A A A A
Ephesians A A A A
Philippians A A A A
Colossians A A A A
1 Thess. A A A A
2 Thess. A A A A
1 Timothy A A A A
2 Timothy A A A A
Titus A A A A
Philemon A A A A
Hebrews A A A DA
James A A A A
1 Peter A A A A
2 Peter A A A D
1 John A A A A
2 John A A A D
3 John A A A D
Jude A A A D
Revelation A DA D
Name and Place
Philaster, Jerome, Augustine, 3rd Council
Italy Italy N. Africa of Carthage,
N. Africa
Approx.
Date C.E. 383 394 397 397
Matthew A A A A
Mark A A A A
Luke A A A A
John A A A A
Acts A A A A
Romans A A A A
1 Corinthians A A A A
2 Corinthians A A A A
Galatians A A A A
Ephesians A A A A
Philippians A A A A
Colossians A A A A
1 Thess. A A A A
2 Thess. A A A A
1 Timothy A A A A
2 Timothy A A A A
Titus A A A A
Philemon A A A A
Hebrews DA DA A A
James A DA A A
1 Peter A A A A
2 Peter A DA A A
1 John A A A A
2 John A DA A A
3 John A DA A A
Jude A DA A A
Revelation DA DA A A
So we can see the entirety of NT scripture was accepted way before the Catholic Church.
Anyway, I hope this post gives you and your readers a reason for pause and clarity, and incites one to “reason from the scriptures,” knowing that we can be “completely equipped for teaching, and setting things straight!”
Nelson
While the formal definition of Trinity is post-biblical, there is more evidence for the Trinity (that there is one God, that Father, Son and Spirit are all God) in the Bible than there is for a New Testament canon. I appreciate your list of books and their place in the canon. I will likely use that myself. But you will have a difficult time finding evidence within the Bible itself that there was going to be a formally limited number of books. I agree that there is one but I see it as post-biblical. The fact that is was developed post-New Testament does not disqualify it.
For whatever reason, I could not directly respond to your response to me below. So I am doing so here.
Just because there is a CANONIZATION (or collecting of) of the 27 books of the Christian Greek Sciptures POST the writing of the individual Bible books, hardly allows for a POST BIBLICAL DOCTRINE of what the writing MEANS!
You are certainly grasping at straws here.
2. When you state: “there is more evidence for the Trinity (that there is one God, that Father, Son and Spirit are all God) in the Bible”
You are AGAIN misleading me and your audience that may read your words. Trinity does not teach “the Father Son and Spirit are all God,” it teaches “the Father, Son and Spirit are 3 individual PERSONS” who MAKE UP or ARE, THE ONE GOD! 3 Whos 1 what.
So again, as a Trinitarian, you don’t say what you mean and mean what you say! Jesus according to the Trinity is ONE PERSON OF GOD! Now show me that from the Bible!
Trinity runs COUNTER to what the Bible SAYS. It’s POST Biblical formalization makes Jesus’ words as to WHOM the “Only True God is” null and void. Notice what I wrote above to which you did not address: (And this is why I hate these type forums. The ones whom have a difficult time developing their points ALWAYS fail to respond to the points made)
Notice the point in Heb 6:1,2:
“For this reason, now that we have left the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works, and faith toward God, the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment.”
Notice how Paul here tells us what the “PRIMARY DOCTRINE” ABOUT THE CHRIST IS:
repentance from dead works
faith toward God
the teaching on baptisms
the laying on of the hands
the resurrection of the dead
everlasting judgment
Did Paul state we need to accept Jesus as second person of some mystical triune Godhead? Funny how the teaching of Trinity isn’t mentioned yet most trinitarians are quick to state that if “you deny trinity, you deny the very fundamental teaching of the Bible!” So I ask: Where does the Bible say that?
FACTS: Trinity doctrine is a POST Biblical teaching. Jesus NEVER taught One God 3 Persons. Jesus told the Samaratian woman at the well:
“You worship what you DO NOT KNOW (like the triune mystery God) WE (the Jews including Jesus himself) worship what we know! Salvation originates with the Jews. True worshippers worship the Father in spirit and truth.” John 4:22,23.
Jesus was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, Moses was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, Isaiah was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, Micah was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, Paul was a JEW, he didn’t teach trinity, the the JEWS NEVER taught Trinity EVER EVER! Why do you teach trinity? Does any trinitarian think you know better that those I just mentioned?
In the above verse, Jesus would have been under obligation to instruct the woman at the well in trinitarianism, as he was identifying TRUE worship from FALSE worship. Yet he stated True worshippers worship ONE PERSON, the FATHER.. not 3 persons.! So TRUE WORSHIPPERS CANNOT be trinitarian according to Jesus! Unless maybe Jesus was telling a lie? or deceiving the woman?
Trinity CANNOT be arrived at using the GRAMMAR of the Bible. Trinity seeks to present what one THINKS the Bible MEANS over what the Bible SAYS. Thereby making the word of God invalid. Trinity REDEFINES WORDS to meet preconceived theological views.
Steve, if you are going to respond, kindly show me the respect of dealing with the points I raise. Otherwise, please just don’t respond and maybe we can discuss them over the phone.
Thanks
I will deal with the nature of the Trinity. What I am trying to here is to show that just because the description of the Trinity is postbiblical, does not mean that it is not true. As I have said, the Bible no where says that there would would one day be canon of books and yet you take it for granted that there is a canon. You even accept the canon developed by church fathers who had a very different Christology than you. If you want to argue on other grounds against the Trinity, that is fine. But the lack of mention of the Trinity is not the best argument.
I don’t see you dealing with the nature of the trinity any where in these dialogs. Yet that is the VERY ISSUE.
No one said just because something is POST BIBLICAL, it isn’t true, Computers are POST BIBLICAL are they True?
We are dealing with WHAT THE BIBLE *says* vs. WHAT SOME PEOPLE THINK the Bible *means.*
You said “You even accept the canon developed by church fathers who had a very different Christology than you.”
Yeah so what, they ALSO burned people alive at the stake. Your point?
I guess you didn’t read my comment on that from before.
Then you said “But the lack of mention of the Trinity is not the best argument.”
WHAT????? The FACT that the Bible records Jesus NEVER teaching Trinity is NOT the Best argument? How bout the fact that the plain teaching of trinity is found NOWHERE in the Bible, NEVER being taught by ANYONE. How about the FACT that the Bible DOES comment on just WHO the ONLY TRUE GOD IS? And it ain’t a trinity of 3 persons! That doesn’t matter either? When you have plain simple language in God’s word that tells us just WHO is the Only True God, One person the Father, this doesn’t matter either?
So I guess now it doesn’t matter what the Bible says.. all that matters is what some anonymous person who wrote the Athanasian Creed tells you what the Bible means.
Wow. And this is your form of Apologetics? Well I’d be “apologizing” too if I were you. Wow. I’m stunned.
Obviously this part of the conversation is not going anywhere. What I was trying to demonstrate was that both of us agree that the doctrine of the canon is essential. We need to know that we can go to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to understand Jesus and not Thomas, Philip, or any of the other noncanonical gospels. Yet Jesus never talked about the canon.
To work toward the Trinity, we must deal first with who Jesus is. In our conversations, you have said that your prefer the plain reading of scripture, one that does not bring a theological agenda. I do not think that anyone just picking up the Bible would easily come to the conclusion that Jesus was Michael. They would likely assume, like most scholars, that the voice of the archangel mentioned in Thessalonians was an archangel announcing the return of Jesus. Believe that Jesus is a created being if you want, but is pretty weak that Jesus is Michael.
You wrote:
Obviously this part of the conversation is not going anywhere.
Yes, I agree, cus you refuse to deal with the bulk of everything I state. I tire of this.
You wrote:
To work toward the Trinity, we must deal first with who Jesus is.
Tough on huh? Lets see: 1John 4:15 is pretty plain in my Bible and just whom does it state we MUST confess Jesus as?
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God.”
Does it state we must confess Jesus as:
God?
Second person of God?
Second person of a trinity God?
Fully God and Fully man?
God in the flesh?
Humm I wonder just who this Jesus is!
I wish I had a verse that told me just how to confess him as!
oh yeah, I do.. 1John 4:15
I know go ask one of your children what it means to be the Son of someone. How about 2John3, that calls Jesus the “Son of the Father.”
I wonder what that means…?? I know, again, ask your kids, I am sure they can explain the complicated relationship to you just fine.
You wrote:
In our conversations, you have said that your prefer the plain reading of scripture, one that does not bring a theological agenda
Yeah, I do prefer the plain reading of scripture, like Jesus is God’s SON!!
But lets look at the scripture from a trinitarian mindset shall we?
Jesus is Gods son, but that does not mean God had a son, well I mean God did have a Son, but he was eternally a Son, so God didn’t really HAVE or produce a son, and Son does not mean he is Gods kid, or child, it just means son, well he is Gods child, but the Father doesn’t really have a Son, and the Son doesn’t REALLY have a Father, a life giver, but I know Father means life giver, but not with regard to Jesus cus Jesus always was a Son, even though a Son means one has a life giver, and Jesus is called the firstborn of creation, but it does not mean what you think it means, it means he is the uncreated and preeminent one of creation, but he is not a part of creation even though it does say he is, and Jesus was born, but not really born, but Jesus was eternal, but he died, even though someone who is eternal cant die, Jesus died, but was still not dead, but always alive, even though he said he lived because of someone else, he didn’t really, cus well he always had life within him, well, it does say Gods put life within Jesus, but not really, Jesus was taught what to speak, well actually he is God and god cant be taught but Jesus was taught, but not really, and Jesus learned things like obedience, but not really cus well, Jesus know everything and cant learn anything cus well, he is God, and who is going to teach God anything, and yes, Jesus knew Everything, well not when the end would come, only his Father knew that, but still Jesus knew when the end is well, cus he is God, even though he said he didnt, he was just a little confused, and The Father had a son, but not really a son, and the Father is not really the Father of Jesus even though the bible says that he is, it really means a relationship, but that relationship means one who gives life to or receives life from another, but it does not mean that, it means something else, I’m not sure what, but trust me, it is not what you would normally think, and Jesus was made higher than the angels, even though he always was higher, he was made higher somehow, but he always was better than the angels, but was made better, but not really, and Jesus was ALWAYS Lord, but he was made Lord by God, but really he was always Lord, but not really, and Jesus always had all authority, but He was only given all authority after his resurrection from being dead, but that doesnt matter, cus he always had all authority even though he was given it after he rose from the dead, I mean not dead, Jesus is eternal, so he wasn’t resurrected but he was resurrected, but he wasnt really dead, well he was, but not like you think, and Jesus is the Almighty God, but he still has one who is God to him, but they are still equal, in all things, even in being God, but Jesus is submissive to the Father but still equal in all things, even though Jesus said his father was greater than he was, he was really just kidding, cus he and his father are EQUAL, except the Father is his God, and Jesus worships the Father, and the Father has no God to him, and the Father is submissive to no one, and the Father worships no one, but still the Father and the son are equal in all things yet they are different, but Jesus is Flesh, and the Father is not, but they are still both identical in nature, even though Jesus has a nature the Father doesn’t, And Jesus is God, but not really God, cus he is a person of God, but still completely God, but not really all of God cus there are others who are God, but not more than One God, just many persons who are all God, but not completely God cus that would be more than one God and make Jesus the Father, and the holy spirit somehow fits in this too, even though the Bible nowhere calls the holy spirit God, just trust me, he is, and Jesus is Gods only begotten Son, but he is begotten which does not mean made, well it does mean made but not when applied to Jesus cus, well, my preconceived theology denys me that, and words dont mean what they mean, well they do mean things, but not what they mean normally, cus well you are talking about God, who cant properly reveal his relationship of himself to Jesus to us mortal men, cus it would like blow our minds, so he told us it was a Father and a Son, but it does not mean a Father and a Son, it means something else other than one who has a child or offspring, it means something other than that, I dont know what, but it doesn’t mean that, trust me.
So that is who Jesus is. Got it? Sounds perfectly logical to me.
Yep, Trinity makes all the sense in the world,. Even a child can comprehend it.
I will deal with the begetting issue in another blog post. Regarding 1 John though, we must take it within its historical context. John is dealing with docetism, the idea that Jesus did not have a human body but only seemed to be human. It definitely was not written to support JW Christology.
Mr. Bedard you are right. We must stay faithful to the bible manuscripts that we have. But if only most translators did just that, God’s name would be in its rightful place. I beleive that among the various ways in which the New World Translation both honors and respects God is by, not “changing”, as you put it, but “restoring” Gods name to its rightful place. This is of paramount importance, so “… That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the most high over all the earth.” (Psalms 83:18)
You are also correct in acknowledging the central role that Jesus Christ plays in the outworking of God’s purpose.
As God’s means of salvation, Jesus Christ is called the Savior. Apart from him no one on earth can be saved from sin and death
But salvation comes from Jehovah God through Jesus Christ. That is why a “great crowd” is depicted in the book of Revelation as making the following declaration: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” (Rev. 7:9, 10) In the capacity of the sacrificial Lamb of God, Jesus Christ provided the basis for saving or liberating them from sin, the “sting producing death,” and therefore also from death. (1 Cor. 15:56) This agrees with the words of an angel to Joseph: “Do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home, for that which has been begotten in her is by holy spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you must call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”—Matt. 1:20, 21.
When before the Jewish supreme court, the apostle Peter pointed this out, saying: “There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”—Acts 4:12.
But Jesus’ being referred to as the Savior does not mean that he is the same as Jehovah God. Why, the very name “Jesus” points to God as the source of salvation. It means “Jehovah Is Salvation” and thus honors the Father as the Savior to whom even the Son looked.
In this way the Son of God on earth was made to bear the name of his heavenly Father, inasmuch as the name Jesus combines in itself the name Jehovah.
As far as the importance of the name Jehovah, i want to make one more point:
Many peoples and religions in the nations claiming to be Christian are actually taking God’s name in a vain and worthless way. By their false teachings and unclean conduct they bring disgrace upon the name of God that they say they bear. Hence Gods’s name needs vindicating, and its vindication is more important than their salvation.
Jehovah promises a new world of righteousness, that the earth will abide forever, that it will be inhabited forever, that by accepting Jesus as our ransom we can be saved to live in it forever. These promises made in his name he must fulfill, otherwise they would be lies in his name and would profane his name. A part of the vindication of his name will be the fulfilling of these promises that scoffers have doubted and ridiculed. Since some of these promises concern human salvation, salvation of obedient men becomes one part of the vindication of Jehovah’s name. Vindication is greater than salvation but it includes salvation, just as it includes the fulfillment of all promises made in Jehovah’s name.
So when Jehovah’s Witnesses stress the vindication of Jehovah’s name they are not belittling salvation of men. That is vital to them and all other human creatures. They are merely keeping vindication and salvation in proper perspective, giving each its rightful place, putting Jehovah’s vindication in first place and keeping man’s salvation in its proper secondary place. Oftentimes even men put their good name higher than their life, preferring to die rather than bring dishonor to their name. If man’s name is more important than his life, certainly God’s name is more important than man’s life! Jesus put as the first great commandment the love for God, and in the secondary position he put the love for man. He also put the sacredness of Jehovah’s name first in the model prayer he taught his followers: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.” When you pray this prayer you also put Jehovah’s name and its sanctification and vindication first. In praying this prayer you too put the human interests secondary to Jehovah’s vindication.
Mr. Bedard you seem to me to be both reasonable and sincere in yor beliefs. I hope you continue to investigate Jehovah’s Witnesses further.
Mr. Bedard here is some information taken from one of our Biblical Encyclopedias (Published by Jehovah’s Witnesses) that may answer your questions regardin the Bible’s canon:
Some forty different individuals served as secretaries of the one great Author to record the inspired Word of Jehovah. “All Scripture is inspired of God,” and this includes the writings of the Christian Greek Scriptures along with “the rest of the Scriptures.” (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 3:15, 16) By “inspiration” is meant, not a mere stimulating of the intellect and emotions to a higher degree of accomplishment (as is often said of secular artists or poets), but the production of unerring writings that have the same authority as if written by God himself. God caused his own spirit to become operative on faithful men whom he used to record things at his direction. For this reason the apostle Peter could declare: “Prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.” (2 Pet. 1:21) In at least one case, however, the information was supplied in written form by God himself. This was the Ten Commandments, God giving Moses two “tablets of stone written on by God’s finger.”—Ex. 31:18.
6 In some cases information was transmitted word for word, by verbal direction. (Ex. 34:27) The prophets also were often given specific messages to deliver. (1 Ki. 22:14; Jer. 1:7) The evidence indicates, however, that the men used by God to record the Scriptures did not always simply record dictated material. For example, John received the Revelation through God’s angel “in signs” and John was told: “What you see write in a scroll.” (Rev. 1:1, 2, 10, 11) So, God apparently saw good to allow the Bible writers to select words and expressions to describe the visions they saw, while he always exercised sufficient guidance over them so that the end product was accurate and suited his purpose. (Eccl. 12:10) This doubtless explains the different styles evident in the books of the Bible.
7 That the writings of Moses were inspired of God there can be no doubt, in the light of internal evidence. It was not Moses’ idea to become the leader of the Israelites. At first Moses drew back at the suggestion. (Ex. 3:10, 11; 4:10-14) Rather, God raised Moses up and gave him miraculous powers. Even magic-practicing priests had to acknowledge that what Moses did originated with God. (Ex. 4:1-9; 8:16-19) In obedience to God’s command and with the divine credentials of holy spirit, Moses was moved first to speak and then to write down part of the Bible. (Ex. 17:14) Following Moses’ death, the writings of Joshua, Samuel, Gad and Nathan (Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel) were added. Kings David and Solomon also made contributions to the growing canon of the Holy Writings. Then came the prophets from Jonah to Malachi, each contributing to the Bible canon. And each in turn met the requirements of true prophets as outlined by Jehovah: They spoke in the name of Jehovah, their prophecies came true and they turned the people toward God.—Deut. 13:1-3; 18:20-22.
8 Just as Jehovah inspired men to write, it logically follows that he would direct the collecting of these inspired writings. According to Jewish tradition, Ezra had a hand in this work after the exiled Jews were resettled in Judah. He was well qualified for the work, being one of the inspired Bible writers, a priest, and also “a skilled copyist in the law of Moses.” (Ezra 7:1-11) The canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was well fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E. It contained the same writings that we have today and which are now divided into thirty-nine books. No council of men made them canonical; from their beginning they had divine approval. The most conclusive testimony on the canonicity of the Hebrew Scriptures is the unimpeachable word of Jesus Christ and the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures. Though they used the inspired Hebrew Scriptures freely, never did they quote from the apocryphal books.—Luke 24:44, 45.
9 The writing and collecting of the twenty-seven books of the Christian Greek Scriptures was similar to that of the Hebrew Scriptures. Christ “gave gifts in men,” yes, “he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers.” (Eph. 4:8, 11-13) With God’s holy spirit upon them they set forth sound doctrine for the Christian congregation. Jesus assured his apostles that God’s spirit would help them, teaching, guiding and recalling to their minds the things they had heard from him, as well as revealing to them future things. (John 14:26; 16:13) This assured the truthfulness and accuracy of their Gospel accounts.
10 The real test of canonicity is not how many times or by what nonapostolic writer a certain book has been quoted. The contents of the book itself must give evidence that it is a product of holy spirit. Consequently, it cannot encourage superstition, demonism or creature worship. It must be in total harmony with the rest of the Bible. Each book must conform to the divine “pattern of healthful words,” and be in harmony with the teachings of Jesus. (2 Tim. 1:13) The apostles clearly spoke with divine authority. By holy spirit they had “discernment of inspired utterances” as to whether such were of God or not. (1 Cor. 12:4, 10) With the death of John, the last apostle, this reliable chain of divinely inspired men came to an end. And so with the Revelation, John’s Gospel and his letters, the Bible canon closed. The sixty-six books of our Bible, by their harmony, testify to the oneness of the Bible, and recommend it to us as indeed Jehovah’s word of inspired truth.
Just a few thoughts:
Regarding the importance of names, consider this:
“Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
(Philippians 2:9–11 ESV)
Regarding the faithfulness of translations, I have no problem with translators indicating where in the OT it is YHWH. However, translating kurios as YHWH when it does not say it in the available texts is not a faithful translation.
My point about canon is that you accept a canon even though the Bible never mentions the word canon and never indicates that there would be a certain number of books or what those books would be. Yet you use the same arguments to suggest the trinity should not be accepted.
To Sincere Seekers of “Truth” from The Holy Scriptures:
Mr Bedard wrote in a post above concerning the web site http://www.jehovah.to :
Stephen Bedard // October 4, 2009 at 7:36 pm | Reply
Thanks for this. That is the web-site I used to answer the question. Very helpful.
—————————————————
Although he did not cite this web site as the source of his answer above until I used it as a reference. Mr. Bedard may or may not then have used the site as a source for what he said.
Here is another quote from that web site concerning the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures:
http://jehovah.to/exe/translation/nwterrors1.htm
&
http://jehovah.to/exe/translation/nwterrors2.htm
“Concerning the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures, George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, 1977, p. 63: “Recent discoveries in Egypt and the Judean Desert allow us to see first hand the use of God’s name in pre-Christian times. These discoveries are significant for N[ew] T[estament] studies in that they form a literary analogy with the earliest Christian documents and may explain how NT authors used the divine name. In the following pages we will set forth a theory that the divine name, יהוה (and possibly abbreviations of it), was originally written in the NT quotations of and allusions to the O[ld] T[estament] and that in the course of time it was replaced mainly with the surrogate [abbreviation for Ky′ri‧os, “Lord”]. This removal of the Tetragram[maton], in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the ‘Lord God’ and the ‘Lord Christ’ which is reflected in the MS tradition of the NT text itself.”
All material is well documented and backed up with references. There is also an abundance of information on all many of the criticisms of critical issues.
A scholarly response to Mr. Bedard’s criticism!!!! There is also use of thinking abilty and logic so very clear in this information. It does seem to be irrefutable.
Sincerely and with Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
Thanks for the reference. I will look into the JBL article. However, I still keep to my stand that we must translate the texts as we have them now. If we found an abundance of Greek texts from the early second century with YHWH, I would be all for changing the translations. But that has not happened yet.
To Sincere Seekers of “Truth” from The Holy Scriptures:
Here is a web site and a quote from it about The New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures from the book “Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament (©2003, University Press of America)” by Jason BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University (Flagstaff, AZ),
http://www.conservapedia.com/New_World_Translation_of_the_Holy_Scriptures
“…Jason BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University (Flagstaff, AZ), examined the The New World Translation along with eight other translation. Although critical of some translation choices made, the professor noted The New World Translation as a “remarkably good” translation that is “better by far” and “consistently better” than some of the others considered. He concluded that the translation is “one of the most accurate English translations of the New Testament currently available” and the “most accurate of the translations compared”. Where translators may feel pressure to paraphrase or expand on what the Bible says, BeDuhn commented that The New World Translation is different in “the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation of the original expressions of the New Testament writers.” – Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament (2003)
Other translations reviewed include: King James Version, New International Version, English Standard Version, New Revised Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, Amplified Bible, Today’s English Version, Living Bible. ”
I think it is also worthy of mention that on the web site cited below that the following can be found and anyone can examine for themselves the truth in the translation and comppare using this web site -
http://biblize.com/ – and simultaniously compare many differnt Bible translations verse by verse.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm
“Read the Bible Online
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
No matter what our circumstances, the Bible contains the direction and counsel that we need. Read it daily.
Bible Reading Schedule”
At the site – http://www.watchtower.org – Bible literature is also available in 403 different languages. It is all in an effort to help in preaching “this good news of the Kingdom” that is to be preached in all the inhabited Earth.
Matthew 24:14 quoted from The New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures:
“14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
Please also use site http://biblize.com/ to compare different Bibles translation of Matthew 24:14 or any verse in the Holy Scriptures whose author Is Jehovah God and using his active force, “the Holy Spirit” , inspired 40 different men to pen the words and knowledge that “lead to “life everlasting” spoken of at John 17:3 as quoted from The New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures:
(John 17:3) -” 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
Much more can and will be said as Jehovah’s Witnesses conduct their public ministry around the Earth in over 230 lands :
http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article_01.htm
in this article titled “Jehovah’s Witnesses—Who Are They? What Do They Believe?”
“Hence, some 6,000,000 persons today who are telling the good news of Jehovah’s Kingdom by Christ Jesus in over 230 lands feel that they properly refer to themselves as Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
Sincerely and with warm Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
PS ~ Mr. Bedard are you disfellowshippped from Jehovah’s Congregation of Christian Witnesses?
I am not a disfellowshipped Jehovah’s Witness. Do I sound like one. I am just a Christian who is interested in the truth of the Bible. I looked into the JBL article that deals with the divine name in the NT. I would like to do a more detailed response at another time but here is my initial reaction. The author demonstrates that some pre-Christian versions of the LXX use the divine name instead of kurios. He then reasons that the NT writers must have quoted these versions of the LXX, that they must have included the divine name in their citations and that someone must have taken it out later. These are alot of assumptions. We do not know what versions of the LXX and we do not know what they included in the autographs. We have to go by the texts that we have. Another problem we have is that the NWT uses YHWH in the NT even when it is not a OT citation which goes beyond what the JBL article claims.
Dear Interested in Truth Readers,
This is related to “What The Bible Really Teaches”; not specifically the WTB&TS’ publication “What Does The Bible Really Teach” but does the Bible really teach when Jesus was born and about other things related to Jesus’ birth. This such a pleasant concise thorough presentation I did want to make it available for honest hearted persons to gain accurate knowledge.
“The Truth About Christmas”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4QrG1qqCoo&feature=player_embedded
Warm Christian Love
Proclaiming the “Good News of God’s Kingdom,”
Randy Nagel
Perhaps I will do a blog post specifically on this video. Thanks.
I studied with some really nice JW’S ladies. But I soon felt a big fear that if I do not commit to follow the teachings and come to all the meeting i will not be a good person. I was shocked when they told me to leave my fiance’ if he does not come into the truth with me. My work schedual was a big topic as well, telling me to rely on jehova, and be humble. When i moved to a bigger city i then went to a bigger hall, I had the oldest car in the lot (2000 chevy malibu), all their cars were brand new, only the ladies that come to my home spoke to me, my 16 year old daughter who has been to other churches with me asked me could she not go. I sat back and asked myself is this what Jehova wants people to feel and act like. In all fairness when i lived in the small town alot of the wittnesses were so nice and appeared to be good hearted people that is how I studied so long with them. I am not posting to quote bible issues or scriptures. I am sad that I was really thinking that i need to go their way and commit to their control for the betterment of my personal relationship with Jehova. I learned so much from them and i was talking with a co-worker about my dilema, she then sent me an image of the founders headstone and what do i see on it a cross- after they made me feel so bad, and argue with my fiance about his christian beliefs and get rid of that cross. Jehova wittnesses may be the road for you or it may not. I wrote all this to say check out any religion and try to not just be a follower, JW’S really preached being sheeplike to me, If this the end of days i can not just lower my eyes with all the satanic symbols in the media, and music i have to find a good church and i thank the JW’S even if it was not for me they still taught me alot. here is the link for the gravestone. cut and past this in your browser ( http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UO2Mg_NBL5Y/0.jpg ). Happy to see everyone speaking their mind without attacks.
Thanks for sharing your story. I appreciate your thoughts.
Stephen,
I appreciate the grace by which you moderated this conversation and the balanced tone of your remarks. I would also appreciate a link to or discussion of the Trinity. Many thanks.
Thanks for your comments. If you go to the category section on this blog, you will see some discussion on the Trinity. Also, I have a book coming out (also called Jehovah’s Witnesses and What the Bible Really Teaches) that will go into more detail. Thanks.
Thank you Stephen. I look forward to the release of your book and will look at the section you mentioned. Also, in case anyone else is interested, I found a few articles on the Trinity at CT site. With your OK, here are the links: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/january/32.67.html?start=1
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/february5/32.66.html?start=1
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1999/july12/9t8072.html?start=1
Blessings
Dear Mr.Bedard and persons intereted in truth from the Bible,
What did Stephen see when the heavens were opened up to him as he was being stoned to seath at Acts 6:55,56?
ASV © 55But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.
KJV © 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
NASB © 55But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
56and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
NIV © 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56″Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
NLT © 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed steadily into heaven and saw the glory of God, and he saw Jesus standing in the place of honor at God’s right hand. 56And he told them, “Look, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing in the place of honor at God’s right hand!”
NWT © 55But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.”
YLT © 55and being full of the Holy Spirit, having looked stedfastly to the heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56and he said, `Lo, I see the heavens having been opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God
Was he standing beside himself? I do not think so!!!!
What did this vision reveal? Filled with God’s active force, Stephen saw Jesus “standing at God’s right hand.” Clearly, then, Jesus did not become God again after his resurrection to heaven but, rather, a distinct spiritual being. There is no mention of a third person next to God in this account.
As the vision given to Stephen illustrates, Jehovah reveals his glory and his purpose to God-fearing individuals who are humble and who appreciate their relationship with him. “The result of humility and the fear of Jehovah is riches and glory and life,” NWT (Proverbs 22:4)
Warm Christian Love,
Randy
Randy, I do not expect to convince you of this. In the NT, the Father is often called God. The doctrine of the Trinity is based on other passages that equate Jesus with God, including OT passages cited in the NT that speak of Jesus as YHWH.
Dear Mr.Bedard and others intersted in the “truth” from the Holy Scrptures,
Mr.Bedard you continue a pattern of stating generalities and not specifics while continuing to side step specific issues raised. Please cite individual scriptures of which you speak so they can be addressed.
Isaih 9:6,7 speaks of Jesus Christ prophetically and cites him as a King. The King of the “kinggdom of God.” NWT
“6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this. ”
Notice he is called a mighty god not almighty God!!!
In the mean time if you choose you could carefully consider these articles at the folloing links:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm
“Should You Believe in the Trinity?”
“How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?”
and
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_03.htm
“Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching? ”
and
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_02.htm
“How Is the Trinity Explained? ”
and
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_08.htm
What About Trinity “Proof Texts”?
and
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_05.htm
“What Does the Bible Say About God and Jesus?
Much more solid reaoning is avaiable for examination!!!!
Warm Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
You said: The doctrine of the Trinity is based on other passages that equate Jesus with God, including OT passages cited in the NT that speak of Jesus as YHWH.
A: Jesus and God are never equated. Jesus said “The Father is GREATER than I am,” at John 14:28. Jesus knew nothing of being equal to God. Compare Phil 2:5,6. “He did NOT consider equality with God.”
B: There are ZERO O.T. passages cited in the NT that speak of Jesus as YHWH. You simply made this up.
C. Remember Mr. Trinitarian, Jesus is NOT YWHW according to the trinity doctrine, but one person OF YHWH (JeHoVaH). Say what you mean and mean what you say. If Jesus is YHWH (JeHoVaH) God and JeHoVaH God is a triune God, then Jesus is Jehovah the TRINUNE GOD!
D: If Jesus is NOT Jehovah the Triune God, what God is he?
E: Of course you cant convince ANYONE of the trinity doctrine from scripture as it is NOT there! Jesus said ONE PERSON the Father was the Only True God. (John 17:3) as did Paul at 1Cor 8:6. YOU say 3 Persons are the only True God (and provide zero scriptures to back it up)
So Whom shall we listen to.. YOU or Jesus and Paul?? I am going with Jesus and Paul.
Randy, be careful of the distinction between Mighty God and Almighty God. Jesus might be called Mighty God in Isaiah 9, but YHWH is called Mighty God in Isaiah 10.
“In that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on him who struck them, but will lean on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.”
(Isaiah 10:20–21 ESV)
Dear Mr.Bedard and others interested in the “truth” contained in the Holy Scriptures,
I have no need of a caution from you but do pay attention to what the Bible says as skould you even after touting all your schooling and so called degees of expertise on what the Bible really teaches. The Bible’s own cautionary words were inspired to be written at 1 Thessalonians 5:21 where it reads in the New World Translation Of The Holy Scriptures, and unless otherwise mentioned, and then I’ll quote from several other translations that verse as well as 1 John 4:1 and also Hebrews 10:21:
(1 Thessalonians 5:21) NWT http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/1th/chapter_005.htm
21 Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.
http://biblize.com/search?q=1+thessalonians+5%3A21&q_scope=
AMP © But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.
ASV © (1) prove all things; hold fast that which is good; [Note: 1) Many ancient authorities insert but ]
KJV © Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
NASB © But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
NIV © Test everything. Hold on to the good.
NLT © but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/1jo/chapter_004.htm
4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/1jo/chapter_004.htm
4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
Mr.Bedard you can consider all the above, post made with a sincere interst in your and all readers spiritual health, honestly and let your heart lead you in your search for Bible “truth” John 17:17, and please be cautious not to believe the “lie” for Satan is the Father of the first lie that Man would be better off knowing good and bad, making decisions independent of his Creator, and subsequently many lies and inspired expressions that are false or mak e sure of all things and hold fast to what is right.
I am not going to try and convince you in this platform as this dialogue seems to be side stepped on important issues with your trivializing things thatare directed for your honest conideration and then to reply to the issued raised. If sincerely intersted when one of Jehovah’s Witnesses engaging in the public ministry speaks with you kindly engage them or you can go to the publice meetings at the over 107,000 Congragations who meet in their Kingdom Halls for a program in Bible education and seek to benefit with them as WE all are instructed to do at Hebrews 10:24,25:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/heb/chapter_010.htm
” 24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.”
Warm Christian Love,
Randy
I agree that there is no point in continuing this conversation. But for the record, I never have touted my education. It is listed if anyone is interested, but I do not expect people to listen to me just because of a few letters after my name. I would hope people would judge based on what I say.
I have really enjoyed reading everyone opinions on here.
It is good to ask questions and search for the answers using the bible, afterall that is why God gave us the bible.
It is sad to see when people get so defensive and reply in harsh ways, but I guess that is your way of defending your own beliefs.
I do feel that we need to kindly accept the opinions of others and act with reasonableness (Phillipians 4:5 - Let your reasonableness become known to all men.)
Stephen Bedard I commend you in your replys always maintaining respect. I hope i can always follow your fine example in this.
Just going back to an earlier point made by Alex Reynolds discussing the 144,000 and how they know they are to goto heaven and being choosen before born.
I understand and believe that at Romans 14:12 it says “So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God”
However i wondering the point made about they are choosen before they are even born? Was this backed up using the bible? If so, please tell me where? I understand that these ones receive an invitation from God to serve as 144,000 but also Jehovah created us all with free will, so such person has to choose to accept the invitation and then live by Gods standards to get there. If this one is choosen from birth and has his name written in the book of life (Luke 10:20), then surely it can be taken out too (Exodus 32:32,33)
Just because that one maybe choosen from birth doesn’t mean that it will be automatic, surely their actions depend. Like Satan as one of the angels, after he used his free will and decided not to serve God, his position and place changed.
1 Thess. 2:12.
“to the end that you should go on walking worthily of God who is calling you to his kingdom and glory.”
Your view points would be most interesting. Please try and back up any points made using the bible
Stephen your background training must prove useful in your studies. How lucky we are that God calls all of us no matter our background or training, so that people without training can come to love him and people with your training who come to love him, we can learn from.
Good insight. Thanks for your post and your encouragement. God bless.
To Persons interested in “What The Bible Really Teaches”,
Do you think humans have a “soul” or are they souls????
Warm Christian Love,
Randy
I do not see the soul as exhausting what a human being is. The OT often talks of heart and soul and that does not make sense if soul is everything. Of course we also have “He answered: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’’ (Luke 10:27 NIV) John speaks of “Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well.” (3 John 1:2 NIV) He seems to suggest that the body is different from the soul. Finally, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul speaks of the exchange of the soulish body for the spiritual body in the resurrection.
Dear Persons intersted in “What THe Bible Really Teaches”,
It is really quite simply stated at Genesis 2:7 and using the Bible research tools at the web site http://biblize.com/ I will quote several Bible translations for honesthearted persons to consider what the Bible clearly states:
AMP©
Then the Lord God formed man from thedust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.
ASV©
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV©
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
NASB©
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
NIV©
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
NLT©
Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.
NWT©
And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.
So the Bible says man came to “be” a soul the after breath ,spirit, of life was blown into his body. He became a breather.
Warm Christian Love,
Randy
So you agree that the Bible teaches WE are souls. WE do not posses a soul.
Warm Christian Love,
Randy
I do not believe that soul represents all that we are. Even the passage you presents has a body separate from a soul. Last time I looked, my body was part of me.
To Persons Intersted in “What The Bible Really Teaches”,
As the 1611 King James version states so clearly at Genesis 2:7 “…man became a living soul.” He became a soul. The defintition of a soul from many sources is a breather,
Dr. H. M. Orlinsky, one of America’s foremost Hebrew scholars, said regarding the use of the word “soul”: “The Hebrew word in question here is ‘nefesh.’ . . . The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself.”
Warm Christian Love,
Randy
I still believe that souls are one part of us. However, I am not interested in arguing the point. You are welcome to your view.
Daer Mr.Bedard,
The issue is not a point of view but “what does the Bible really teach.” Not my view or yours but as the Bible states at John 17:17 of itself or the “word of God” – the truth and quoting just the 1611 KIng James Version but others express the same thought:
(John 17:17) – KJV © “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”
Wartm Christian Love,
Randy
Just want to throw my two cents in. I am not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses but I was raised as one. I read all of the discussion exchanged by different users, very interesting. Just quickly regarding the last conversation regarding the word “soul”. It seems to be a word that carries different meanings and doesn’t have just one meaning like Randy Nagel seems to imply. For example, God is recorded to have spoken of ‘My Soul’ in several places. Obviously, God is much more than just a ‘soul’ as most people think of that term, and He surely wasn’t talking about His having a human body. So we must conclude that what He was referring to is ‘His life’.
Of course, I reject wholeheartedly the notion of a immortal soul being taught anywhere in scripture since the word immortal[ity] (Greek:’athanasia’) is only mentioned in the Bible in two places, and it isn’t used with or applied to the word soul in either case. Also, of what good use would the resurrection be if you truly are immortal (can never die) and go to a better place. Why bring back beings who never really died and enjoying their new life in a better place.
Ytany
Thanks for your thoughts. As for the need for a resurrection if something of us already survives death, the New Testament does seem to suggest there is something we experience at death and that there is a future resurrection. I would suggest you read N.T. Wright’s Surprised by Hope. Wright describes resurrection as life after life after death.
If interested in “What The Bible Really Teach,”
When Jehovah God speaks of “my soul” in the Bible it is an anthropomorphic
usage of the word soul.
Sincerely and with warm Christian Love,
Randy Nagel
Hi Stephen,
Can you please cite where in the NT it suggests there is something we experience at death?
Resurrection simply means to stand up again. If you claim to still survive or live then of what purpose does the resurrection really serve. I believe Jesus left it plain that death simply means death, that is, you cease to exist until your resurrected (stand up) and alive again.
John 5:28,29: “Don’t be surprised at this, because the hour is coming when everyone in the tombs will hear his voice and come out; those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced what is foul to a resurrection of judgment.”
Why would anybody in the tombs need to ‘come out’ if their alive somewhere else invisibly or as a the doctrine of immortality of the soul teaches never really cease to exist.
Thanks,
Ytany
Thanks for your question. Here are a couple of passages that come to mind.
“One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.””
(Luke 23:39–43 ESV)
“Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”
(2 Corinthians 5:8 ESV)
“The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.””
(1 Samuel 28:13–15 ESV)
That is not all but that is a sample of passages that describe some sort of conscious existence after death but before the resurrection.
Your comment about 1 Samuel 28:13 – 15 does not say it was Samuel but rather a bad spirit who copied the image and voice of Samuel. See the preceding verses of it. I would suggest the readers to visit these links. Many helpful explanations are on it.
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/pageindex.htm
Hi Stephen,
Thanks for your response. The passages provided I believe highlight the promises of a real resurrection rather than simply stating when you die immediately a immortal entity escapes the body.
Regarding what was told to the criminal and your implication that the moment he died a immortal entity would escape undermines other key issues of 1) A real Kingdom (or government) 2) A real bodily resurrection
If you believe that the criminal was promised live in heaven the minute he died (or ‘today’) then that creates problems since the scripture reveals Jesus was the first to ascend to Heaven. Also recognize that this criminal had never been baptized and had done nothing else to that point to be found worthy of being appointed a king in heaven.
Additionally, the Greek word ‘paradeiso’ really means a garden or park (a place on earth) because, paradeiso is the same word that was used to describe the ‘Paradise of Eden’ (Garden of Eden) in the Greek Septuagint.
The quote of 2 Corinthians 5:8 I believe highlights those who will reign with Jesus ‘to judge Israel’s twelve tribes’ (Luke 22:30). But I do not see anywhere that implies a immortal entity leaving the body the moment you die.
The passage of 1 Samuel only highlights sorcery at its finest and infers the witch of Endor has more power than the Almighty because Jehovah had already stated he would remove his blessing to Saul by not answering ‘him in his dreams, give him signs, or answer through the Prophets’.
“Well, when Saul looked at the camp of the Philistines, it frightened him and he became weak at heart. Then he started asking [the direction of Jehovah], but Jehovah wouldn’t answer him in his dreams, give him signs, or answer through the Prophets. So he said to his servants, ‘Search for a woman who can tell the future, and I’ll go ask her!’”(1 Samuel 28 5-7)
In conclusion the passages when understood more carefully say nothing about a existence of consciousness after death let alone something immortal as taught widespread by most Christian institutions.
Regards,
Ytany
I take seriously the word ‘today.’ This does not cause problems as it says that the criminal would be with Jesus. By the way, if Jesus is the first to get to heaven, how did Enoch and Elijah get there first? Paradise does refer back to the garden, a contemporary Jewish image for heaven.
Regarding Samuel, a plain reading of the passage suggests that the medium did raise the spirit of Samuel, not by her power but by supernatural intervention of God.
Hi Stephen,
Appreciate your response. I believe what is found in John 3:13 strongly suggests Jesus was the first to enter heaven.
Also please cite where Enoch and Elijah are now reigning with Jesus?
Regarding paradise and its very strong implication of relating to a condition on earth as related before the fall of Adam can be found here:
“Then all will be leaping for joy, in the happiness that they will find there!
‘{Look!} I’ll make JeruSalem a leaping for joy, over the happiness of My people. And about JeruSalem I’ll shout in praise, and be happy along with My people. No more will there be sounds of weeping, or the sounds of crying among them. No way will there be a miscarriage, or old men who don’t live out their time. For, a man will be young at a hundred years old, and the sinner will die cursed at a hundred. ‘Then they will build houses and live there; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit, and they will drink their own wine. There’s no way that they’ll build for others, and no way will they plant for others to eat.’Then the days of My people will be, as the days of a tree; and things they make with their hands will grow old. ‘My elected won’t labor for nothing, nor will they produce children for a curse; since their seed and all their descendants, will then be blessings from God. Before they call I will hear them, and when they speak, I’ll be asking, What is it?
‘Then wolves and lambs together will graze, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The snake will eat the ground as its bread, and they will not harm or destroy, on My Holy Mountain,’ says Jehovah. (Isaiah 65:18-25)
A closer examination of does not suggest what you imply, namely, God has dealings with spirit mediums.
The following are the reasons why what you imply cannot be true:
1) Samuel never again spoke with Saul (1 Samuel 15:35)
2) Scripture states God would no longer have any dealings with him when it was said ‘he [Saul] started asking [the direction of Jehovah], but Jehovah wouldn’t answer him in his dreams, give him signs, or answer through the Prophets.’
3) Scripture strictly condemns an act such as Saul as a detestable thing. (Deuteronomy 18:9-11)
4) Also the Bible teaches you are no longer conscious when you die (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)
Thanks,
Ytany
Regarding Elijah, I would not word it as him reigning with Jesus but the Bible does say he went to heaven. “And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (2 Kings 2:11 ESV)
Regarding Samuel, the reasons you cite are what give the passage its context. Saul was desperate as he did not have access to Samuel (by ordinary means) and God stopped speaking to him as judgment. What Saul did was illegal and he did not benefit from him, but rather it was God’s judgment that was pronounced to him. Was it wrong for God to allow Saul to hear from Samuel through a medium? No worse than God speaking through the pagan prophet Balaam.
Ytany, I get the picture that you do not believe in an afterlife between death and the resurrection. I do believe that there is some sort of conscious existence between death and the resurrection. We are not going to convince each other. You have set forth your case, I have set forth mine. I think we should leave it there.
Hi Stephen,
Sure no problem. Thank you for your time. I enjoy your other blogs and I have learned quite a few things.
Regards,
Ytany
Thanks for your thoughts. I am always happy to provide clarification but I find debate usually wastes people’s time. We need to set forth our case and let people decide for ourself. The great thing about this issue is that eventually we will know the answer.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs. I know this because I spent three years studying with the JW from their yellow “teaching book”. The following are a few of their contradicting beliefs:
1. JW believe that the light keeps getting brighter, this allows them to change the scriptures, their predictions and even their beliefs.
KJV – Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. ”
– Proverbs 30:6 “Add not unto his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.”
– Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
JW – John 1:1 In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was ** a god.** “-NWT.
KJV – ” ” “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”-KJV.
So who is right? The academic credentials of the NWT translator’s are unknown, those for the KJV are readily available and quite impressive.
JW – Colossians 1:16-20 NWT- “because by means of him all [other] things have been created….all [other] things have been created through him….Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist….”
Literal Greek Text- Suffice it to say that the word “other” is not found in the Greek text.
KjV – ” 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
2. JW do not believe in celebrating holidays
KJV – Colossians 2:16 “Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Romans 14:5 5One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regards the day, regards it to the Lord; and he that regards not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it. He that eats, eats to the Lord, for…13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling Block or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way
3. JW do not believe in blood transfusions
KJV – Deuteronomy 12:23 “23Only be sure that you eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and you may not eat the life with the flesh….27And you shall offer your burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD your God: and the blood of your sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD your God, and you shall eat the flesh. (their is no mention of blood transfusions)
-Romans 13:10 Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
4. JW – believe the soul dies when the body dies
“Search for a woman who can tell the future, and I’ll go ask her!’”(1 Samuel 28 5-7). Your comment about 1 Samuel 28:13 – 15 does not say it was Samuel but rather a bad spirit who copied the image and voice of Samuel. See the preceding verses of it…in conclusion the passages, when understood more carefully say nothing about a existence of consciousness after death let alone something immortal as taught widespread by most Christian institutions. (Sounds like something straight from the J.W. reasoning book)
KJV – 1 Samuel 28: 11-12 “11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
(the bible dose not say anywhere that the woman saw a bad spirit. Proverbs 30:6 “Add not unto his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.” )
J.W. – the Bible teaches you are no longer conscious when you die ( Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)
KJV – 5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. .. . 10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
But The author of Ecclesiastes was Salomon who was speaking about the body. Let us see what Jesus says about the body that dies, the soul and hell.
KJV – Matthew 10:28 And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV – Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
KJV – Mark 9:47 “And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where the worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Proverbs 30:6 “Add not unto his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.”
Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. “
It is true that sometimes it is tiring to present what the real doctrines is presented by the word of God or the Bible. But for some people who have interests on spiritual truth, let me post my
comment on you about Elijah being taken up to heaven. There is no verse in Hebrew Scriptures that speaks of the righteous people that will go in heaven after resurrection but rather the resurrected people will live on earth – Proverbs 2:21, 22; Psalms 37:11, 29. It was through Jesus the heavenly hope is preached to people. Please see the link below for additional information about heavenly life and earthly life.
http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/heavens-will-pass-away-what-does-it-implies/
How about Ezekiel who was taken up in heaven in 2 Kings 2:11? He was not taken up to literal heaven but rather in a place somewhere just like prophets thought in verse 16. They said it because they have no knowledge about resurrection into heaven much well of a living man then eventually taken up into heaven. What they saw is a whirlwind that took up Elijah in sky and displaced him into another place. One thing the word “sky” in English simply refers to the same word as “heaven” just like in Genesis 1:28; Psalms 79:2; Jeremiah 7:33; 15:3. They have the same Hebrew word. Thus, Jesus was the one who revealed the word of Jehovah about those who have hope for heavenly life and those who have hope for earthly life. It was through him the eternal life in heaven was been introduced to people during his ministry. Therefore the fact of denying the Greek Scriptures is the same as denying Jesus and the hope for heavenly life since the heavenly life was taught in the Greek Scriptures and by Jesus. No one has the knowledge of heavenly hope in the Old Testament or Hebrew Scriptures. It was only through Jesus that the resurrection for heaven life has been introduced and only through his apostles and disciples which is also known as the early Christians.
Here are the Hebrew Interlinear about the word “heaven” which means of a literal “sky”:
Genesis 1: 28 http://interlinearbible.org/genesis/1.htm
Psalms 79:2 http://interlinearbible.org/psalms/79.htm
Jeremiah 7:33 http://interlinearbible.org/jeremiah/7.htm
Jeremiah 15:3 http://interlinearbible.org/jeremiah/15.htm
Another thing there is no one who ascended in heaven before Jesus Christ. John 3:3 – 5 speaks of baptism in water and born of spirit and are the only ones who will have chance to enter in heaven. There is no baptism before in Hebrew Scriptures but rather taking a bath to wash body if ever they touch a dead body, have transmitted disease or have “wet dreams” and it is being done without limitations that is whenever the person experience these. It was said also in the Bible that David did not ascend to heaven as what Paul said – Acts 2:34.
We JWs are not really debating with any one or group. We come to people to share what we believe is true and we hope people with different races will come to realize the truth in the word of God. I would give you an essay of mine that discusses about those who will be in heaven and who will be on earth. Please read this link. http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/will-all-the-righteous-people-go-to-heaven/
You can visit my fb wall if ever you wish to.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001759236778
We are not here to win over someone’s faith but to let the people realize and accept the truth.
You have not really addressed where Elijah is. To say not heaven but just some other place is not really addressing the question. It does not matter what we call it, he is in some place which is not earth and yet pre-dates the resurrection. That sounds a lot like what we call heaven, even if we want another name.
Please tell me when your book will be out Pastor Bedard?
I was talking to my publisher the other day and it should be available in some way in the next couple of months, although availability on Amazon and other sellers will take a bit more time. Keep watching for announcements! Thanks for your interest.
I hope it will be available on Kindle or some other e-reader. I’m putting all my new books on my i-pad. :- )
Love to all